The Paul Elam Debate, Part 2

by Frost on November 3, 2011

Paul has two main arguments in his latest installment. Three, if you count that I am a shallow, self-absorbed, obfuscating chimp, among other things. Fortunately, both PUAs and MRAs agree that the correct response to inconsequential womanly histrionics is to ignore them, so I will limit myself to the first two.

On risk management, let me outsource this to a comment by Zatarra:

“I think their failure to incorporate risk management calls irrefutable bullshit on that.”

I am not sure where you are getting the idea that Game does not incorporate risk management. Your initial article referenced Roissy. Did you go his site and search for anything on risk management. I did.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/repeal-the-imbra-now/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/?s=false+rape

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/09/22/the-anti-false-rape-accusation-campaign/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/film-your-bangs/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/potential-rapist-syndrome/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/06/22/a-blatant-case-of-sex-discrimination-in-the-law/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/13/spinsterhood-bastard-children-are-our-future/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/the-beta-crisis-of-american-men-marrying-older-women/

There are so many more. It took me three minutes to find these.

Incidentally, here’s my April Fool’s post, and follow up. Not only do I warn my readers about the dangers of marriage, I do it with style. The truth is that the majority of the Game blogs – certainly those on trial here, i.e. the one you specifically called out, and the one whose author you accepted a debate with – are well aware of the risks that the current environment poses to sexually active men.

The second point Paul makes is that his teachings on the arts of seduction are an effective substitute for reading the likes of Roissy. From yesterday’s post:

“To the contrary, AVfM is very much interested in improving relationships with women …. by advocating for their uncompromised and unambiguous accountability in matters personal.

That insistence on personal accountability goes a long way toward improving relationships in my own life, with men and women alike. It helps me maintain peace of mind, eliminates most drama and risk, and has never cost me a piece of ass that I wanted. Rather it enhances the quality of all people I choose to associate with because I screen out the dead weight early on, before they can cause real problems or simply suck up time out of my life that I will never get back.”

I agree with this. Our culture teaches young men to accept illogical, unreasonable women as a fact of life. Men should refuse to accept that.

But is this advice (plus, of course, take a shower) sufficient for young men today, navigating the treacherous waters of sex and dating in a poisonous society, culture and legal system?

*

Paul, let me tell you what it’s like to be a young man today.

Women’s sexual liberation has turned the sexual marketplace into a winner-take-all jungle, and we have been dropped into this quagmire dick-first. The problem is compounded by our culture’s demonization of healthy masculine values, and the viciously anti-male bias in our social norms and justice system.

Some men will consider this world and say, “No Thanks.” Hence, the herbivores, coming soon en masse to a continent near you.

As for the rest of us, we need to learn how to meet, seduce, and have fulfilling relationships with women.

Yes, I realize we don’t need sex and companionship, in the same way we need food and oxygen. But we desperately want it. The desire is woven into our genes more tightly than any other. Some young men who choose a life of celibacy will claim to not feel this desire. Most are lying to themselves. The rest need to get their testosterone levels checked.

For the 95% of men who choose a life that involves the pursuit of women, the challenge they face is far greater than Elam, Alek, and their occasional echoers will admit. They want to tell you, their readers, that you don’t need Game. Take a shower. Stand next to women. No further discussion needed.

Perhaps this advice, combined with a simple introduction, is sufficient for a decent-looking man, with some degree of social savvy, to get laid. I grant, there are women for whom Shower Game will suffice.

But ‘getting laid’ is not a binary value. In a healthy man’s mind, there is more to life than just ‘getting laid’ and ‘not getting laid.’ Do I want to get my dick wet? Sure. But that’s not all:

– I want to consistently have one-night stands with extraordinarily beautiful, smart and interesting women.

– I want to consistently be in relationships with beautiful, brilliant, kind, sweet, generous women.

– Eventually, I want to find the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life, and I want to have children with her.

Individually, these are all bold and challenging goals. Combined, they strain the boundaries of reality. Less than one-tenth of one-percent of men can honestly claim to have achieved the life that I desire. I have unashamedly set my sights on being the sort of man who can literally take his pick of women.

While pursuing this life, I also want to avoid the dangers endemic to being a man in the 21st century western world. Divorce theft. FRAs. Crazy girls poisoning my dog or cutting my dick off in my sleep.

So you see, the men of my generation have a lot to learn. We have our work cut out for us. This is especially the case if we want to limit your relationships to the cream of the crop – the most attractive, smartest, sweetest, most trust-worthy women in the United States. Paul, have you seen the women in this country? The number that are bangable, let alone dateable, is not great. And I’m competing with every non-dumpster-diving man for those select few.

Fortunately, I’ve found a few resources that have helped provide a little light on this dark path. Roosh offers simple, natural-feeling examples of how he meets and seduces women. Roissy has introduced an entire generation of young men to Red Pill ideas by interspersing them within practical advice on the nuts and bolts of seduction, and occasional musings on the inevitable downfall of western civilization. Dagonet, FFY, and Gmac write about their lives and experiences, not as a professor lectures his students, but rather as young men swapping war stories. I write about game and sexual politics partly because it interests me, but also because learning how to have fulfilling relationships with women is an important priority to the vast majority of healthy young men.

These men, like me, want to acquire whatever tools they can to improve their fortunes with women. That’s what Game is. That’s how we define it. If you would rather score points on some fictionalized caricature of the seduction community that turns its members into effeminate hipsters, prostrates itself before women, sells overpriced seminars, and values pussy as the one and only worthy goal in life, go pick a fight with them. As it stands, you called out Roissy, and you’re debating me. So let me tell you a little bit about the community we’re a part of:

1) We write about Game

There is no upper limit to how successful a man can be with women. Paul, has your ambition hit its limit at the woman with whom you are currently in a relationship? Non-celibate commenters, can you honestly look in the mirror and tell yourself that you don’t want more and better? I can’t. No one I’ve linked to can. We are addicted to becoming better versions of ourselves, and we will hopefully not rest while our hearts still beat.

2) We write about Game as one facet of a general commitment to self-improvement and better living

It’s actually somewhat ironic that I wound up carrying the ‘Gamer’ torch in this debate, since only about one-fifth of my posts are Game-related. The rest is about Paleolithic nutrition, personal finance and career choices, productivity and focus, and finding meaning in a world that doesn’t seem to have a lot of it.

As a man who is ruthlessly dedicated to discipline and conscious living in every other aspect of his life, I see no reason to make an exception for my relationships with women. I’ll say it again: Having my pick of women to have sex and relationships with is vitally important in my life. Is this because of my ego? A bit. Because society has conditioned me? I can’t disprove that. But the overwhelming impetus behind my desire to bang hot women is that it’s encoded in my DNA.

Among virtually every man my age, this is an enduring and unchangeable fact of life. Nor would I change it, if I could. As men, we love sex, we love women, and we love that we love sex and women. To deny it would be to live a fraction of life. Does that make me pussy-centric? Well Paul, I guess I’m just pussy-centric.

*

In the interest of moving this conversation forward, I hope you can grant me this premise: Seducing high-quality women is not easy. The vast majority of men in the world would like to do it, but they cannot. Maybe it’s easy for you and many of your commenters (although as a general rule, I take internet tough-guys’ claims to sexual prowess with a shaker of salt). But it’s not easy for the vast majority of men. Those of you in the live viewing audience, don’t take my word for it – just look around you in the real world. Sleeping with 9s and 10s on a regular basis is difficult.

Now, on top of that challenge, the men of my generation must contend with the very real issues that A Voice For Men focuses on. The legal reality of marriage. False rape and sexual harassment charges. The poisonous effects of unchecked anti-male bias of our pop culture and education system.

This is the world that I live in. This is the world that the young men of my generation are trying to understand. We desperately need guidance, advice, leadership.

We need a hell of a lot more than “just take a shower.” If Shower Game is the best that A Voice For Men can do, than the question is closed. Young men need a better source of information about women and dating. The Roissysphere is it.

{ 48 comments… read them below or add one }

lol November 6, 2011 at 9:25 am

The saying is talking about actually following the fool, not just standing back and watching him. Elementary, dear donlak.

Harry November 6, 2011 at 2:03 pm

Following the fool obviously means adopting his behavior, not merely pointing out he is a fool. Pointing out that the fool is a fool is now following the fool? Seriously, donlak…….this cannot be the level you are at. I refuse to believe it.

donlak November 5, 2011 at 10:32 pm

I think it went over your head…

lol November 5, 2011 at 4:00 pm

I’m not following anyone. Apparently you don’t understand the meaning of that saying.

donlak November 5, 2011 at 3:16 pm

LOL,

who’s the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows them?

Meaning, you’re commenting here… so…

lol November 5, 2011 at 2:11 pm

I’ll just state this again:

“PUAs are delusional, pathetic beggars with no self-respect who grovel in front of women, ready to jump through any hoop like circus animals, even if it means enabling feminism.

MRAs are at best feminists with the genders reversed and at worst wannabe rapists.

Both sides are a waste of perfectly good oxygen.”

This is like watching two retards argue about which of them is the smartest man in the world.

ruddyturnstone November 4, 2011 at 10:46 pm

“As a man who is ruthlessly dedicated to discipline and conscious living in every other aspect of his life, I see no reason to make an exception for my relationships with women. I’ll say it again: Having my pick of women to have sex and relationships with is vitally important in my life. Is this because of my ego? A bit. Because society has conditioned me? I can’t disprove that. But the overwhelming impetus behind my desire to bang hot women is that it’s encoded in my DNA.”

Your DNA leads you to seek out relatively young women and inseminate them. It doesn’t lead you to have some crazy need to “have your pick of women.” Again, I see no reason why this should be “vitally” important to you. DNA, at most, urges you to spread your seed far and wide, with fertile women, not necessarily with super hotties only. And sure, ego and culture play their roles in leading us to choose hot women over not so hot ones. But, for most guys, reasonable success with a reasonable number of reasonably hot women is more than enough. And they have DNA, ego and cultural backgrounds too. Don’t project your strange fixation on fantasy fulfillment to DNA.

“Among virtually every man my age, this is an enduring and unchangeable fact of life.”

Again, I simply disagree. I was once your age, and know plenty of guys who are or were your age. And none of them, besides you, seem to consder it “vitally important” to have an endless series on ONS’s and relationships with super perfect ten plus women. Sure, almost all of them want or wanted sex, and the hotter the partner the better. But it is not the case that they had some obsession with screwing only the best and with running up the score beyond counting.

“Nor would I change it, if I could. As men, we love sex, we love women, and we love that we love sex and women. To deny it would be to live a fraction of life. Does that make me pussy-centric? Well Paul, I guess I’m just pussy-centric.”

One can love women and sex without being pussy centric. Specifically, one can love women and sex without setting absurd, unachievable goals viz a viz the number and “quality” of women that one screws and has relationships with. If your goals are really what you say they are, then you are pussy centric, but that doesn’t mean all other young men are like you.

Frost November 6, 2011 at 9:57 am

Very few men will admit what they want, because admitting their goals implies failure on their part if they haven’t achieved them.

As for this supposed crazy need I have, it’s not like I’m laying awake at night stressing because the girl next to me is a 9, or god forbid an eight, instead of a ten. Also, I only spend a small amount of my time reading about Game, and to the extent that I ‘practice’ it, ie go to bars with my friends and strike up conversations with pretty girls in coffee shops – well, it’s no great imposition on my life.

ruddyturnstone November 6, 2011 at 11:32 am

“Very few men will admit what they want, because admitting their goals implies failure on their part if they haven’t achieved them.”

That’s kind of a non falisifiable claim, no?…. “All or most men want what I want, even though they say they don’t.”…..

“As for this supposed crazy need I have, it’s not like I’m laying awake at night stressing because the girl next to me is a 9, or god forbid an eight, instead of a ten. Also, I only spend a small amount of my time reading about Game, and to the extent that I ‘practice’ it, ie go to bars with my friends and strike up conversations with pretty girls in coffee shops – well, it’s no great imposition on my life.”

OK fine, but then what’s with this “it is vitally important” that I have x,y and z when it comes to women stuff? Either it is vitally important to you, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, why say that it is? If it is, don’t change your story when you get challenged on it.

ruddyturnstone November 4, 2011 at 10:29 pm

“I want to consistently have one-night stands with extraordinarily beautiful, smart and interesting women.

– I want to consistently be in relationships with beautiful, brilliant, kind, sweet, generous women.

– Eventually, I want to find the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life, and I want to have children with her.

“Individually, these are all bold and challenging goals. Combined, they strain the boundaries of reality. Less than one-tenth of one-percent of men can honestly claim to have achieved the life that I desire. I have unashamedly set my sights on being the sort of man who can literally take his pick of women.”

Well then, you had better not only learn Game, but make a trillion dollars too, and be president of the US and a Super Bowl MVP quarterback. Because that’s what it would take to be a guy who can “literally” take his pick of women. You seem to realize this, as you talk about being in the top half of the top percentile. Why is this so important to you? Let’s return to this topic in a moment…

Your goals seem strange to me, if not contradictory. Every man has a harem fantasy, everyman, at some visceral level, wants “to consistently have one-night stands with extraordinarily beautiful” women.” Shoot, most of us want to have more than one such woman at a time! But does that make it a worthwhile goal, never mind a realistic one? If you could have one night stands with one hundred, or one thousand, extraordinarily beautiful women, wouldn’t that be enough? Guys with gorgeous girls coming out their shoes, like John Lennon, for example, EVENTUALLY get tired of simply banging one after the other.

Then too, I left out part of your first goal, namely that the women not only be extraordinarily beautiful, but smart and interesting too. Why does this even matter? If you are only going to be with them for one night, what does their IQ or education level matter to you? Rather than being smart and interesting, maybe, when it comes to one night stands, you should consider “being good in bed” as a criteria, along with beauty. In fact, as an “older guy,” I can tell you that my fondest memories of sexual encounters are more about the quality of the lovemaking (or sexplay, if you want to call it that) than the “beauty” of the partner (never mind her being smart or interesting).

“I want to consistently be in relationships with beautiful, brilliant, kind, sweet, generous women.”

Um, you realize, right, that there are almost no such women, don’t you? How many guys are there that you know who are handsome, brilliant, kind, caring and generous? Not many, right? What makes you think that there are any great number of women out there? Yet you desire not merely one relationship with such a woman, but a “consistent” series of such relationships. Leaving aside how few such women there are, if you happen to meet one, why would she desire you? OK, you know GAME, you have skills, you are a fine fellow, etc, etc. But, again, unless you are the President, or Tom Brady, or one of those Facebook guys, or whatever the equivalent of Mick Jagger is these days, or George Clooney, why would such a girl want you? You are talking about “Ten” plusses here. Women who, to use your word, can have their pick of men. You would have to be one of the most eligible, desirable men in the world to land even one such woman in a relationship, never mind a consistent series of them. And that leads to the next question….if you found such a woman, and were lucky enough to be in a relationship with her, why would you want anything else? Why wouldn’t you want that relationship to last, rather than have a “consistent” series of such relationships?

Then you say:

“Eventually, I want to find the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life, and I want to have children with her”

which really makes no sense. Every man meets the “most incredible woman he has ever met in his life,” at some point or another, and whether he recognizes her at that time or not. So, literally speaking, this is a big come down from your last two goals. You want one night stands with only the best, and relationships with only the best. But the best you meet is good enough to have kids with. OK, maybe that’s not what you mean, but what do you mean? Women are not “incredible.” They are what they are. Some are pretty, some are plain. Some are smart, some dumb. Some kind, some cruel. Etc, etc. Really, the best anyone can hope for is that their woman has some combination of good traits, such that they outweigh whatever bad traits that she also has.

Women are human beings. Not goddesses. And they are whole persons, complete with flaws, in every instance, not simply your projection of what would happend if you crossed a Playboy Playmate with an Oxford professor and then threw in some of the best qualities of the Holy Mother of God, Mother Theresa and your own mother!!

I guess what I am saying is that you claim to be a well rounded person, to whom Game is not the only thing of importance, but then you turn around and define your whole life, your goals, your whole sense of self, your whole notion of personal success or failure, in terms of how many, and of what “quality,” women you get in the sack.

Instead of starting out seeking to screw more women that Wilt Chamberlain, better women than Hugh Grant, and then have a marriage with a woman better than any that has ever existed, why not set realistic goals concerning the other facets of your life (education, career, hobbies, spiritual development, physical fitness and so on), add a little Game, and then let the romance aspect take care of itself. In other words, if you do all those things, and learn and practice some Game, you should get more than enough one night stands with girls hot enough to satisfy your short term lust, more than enough short to medium term relationships with women of reasonable quality, and, eventually, if you want to and are willing to run the risks of Marriage 2.0, a good wife.

It’s like you are putting the cart before the horse. You want to live a full, happy, successful and satisfying life. Well then, go do so. You seem to have the right idea as to what that entails. But why muck that up with Austin Powers-like fantasies of being Mr World Spanning King Gigilo Stud? Why is that even desirable (in the long run, when the fantasy is over), never mind necessary? Be a big success and a healthy, happy, fit guy, AND learn SOME Game, and that should be all you need when it comes to your relations with the distaff side. Don’t devote your life to some insane attempt to set the scoring record and to do so only with girls you don’t even exist outside your fondest fantasies.

I would never tell a young man that sex doesn’t matter or that he shouldn’t learn Game to help him, but making sex and Game the end all and be all is not a good thing either.

Frost November 6, 2011 at 9:49 am

Sure, I agree with most of what you write. I will never have my literal pick of women. But I have unrealistic best-case scenario goals in most areas of my life. My point is that no man can honestly claim to have reached the end of his ambition in terms of having more and better women.

lol November 6, 2011 at 10:06 am

You are projecting, Frost. You project your ambition to always have more and better women on other people, and you do it because like all PUAs you are a sheep. You are only comfortable with a decision or perspective if you can tell yourself that everyone else must share it with you, and if they don’t they are either liars or some insignificant outliers. Why do PUAs go around insisting that their taste in women is rooted in objective fact and cannot be challenged by any man? Because they are terrified of having an opinion that somebody might not agree with. Because they are sheep. But unlike regular sheep they don’t simply go along with the status quo, they invent a status quo that suits them.

ruddyturnstone November 6, 2011 at 11:37 am

“My point is that no man can honestly claim to have reached the end of his ambition in terms of having more and better women.”

does NOT equal

“As a man who is ruthlessly dedicated to discipline and conscious living in every other aspect of his life, I see no reason to make an exception for my relationships with women. I’ll say it again: Having my pick of women to have sex and relationships with is vitally important in my life.”

A vague “ambition” (more like a fantasy, really) is not the same thing at all as a “vitally important” goal.

ladderff November 4, 2011 at 10:29 am

Harry you suck. donlak has been far more polite with you than you deserve.

In ten years of various relationships with women, nobody has ever so much suggested that I pander to them—not at a bar, not in a relationship, not ever. Rather, people who actually know me have noticed how women would sometimes pander to me. You’re the only one who’s ever said that (donlak, Frost, and by extension) I pander. You know nothing about game and nothing about me, and on this solid foundation of ignorance you base your insults. There are many who might consider the excessive amount of masturbating you undoubtedly do degrading, but I wouldn’t embarrass myself publicly by insulting you about it, because I know nothing about you, except that you write like a pimple-ridden Ayn Rand acolyte and your quotation mark key is broken. You do not seem to mind being an asshole, so you plunge ahead. There’s only one self-respecting response to your bitter bullshit: go fuck yourself.

Cut the bullshit.

Harry November 4, 2011 at 12:28 pm

*…….nobody has ever so much suggested that I pander to them—not at a bar, not in a relationship, not ever……*

They did not have to suggest it to you, you were doing it already.

*……and your quotation mark key is broken…..*

This is actually true. Its quite annoying. Maybe I should get my laptop fixed.

Retrenched November 3, 2011 at 8:05 pm

So Harry, what do you REALLY think of game? Don’t hold back now ;)

Harry November 3, 2011 at 8:18 pm

Retrenched, I am obviously strongly in favor of it ;)

donlak November 3, 2011 at 8:02 pm

one more thing, I was rude to you, so in order to fit in with what you say about yourself, shouldnt you turn around and walk away, leaving me Embarrased? isn’t talking to me spineless?

isn’t trying to jump through our hoops to prove your point to people hear not suplicating? Logic suggests you would… but I don’t see that happening.

cheers

Harry November 3, 2011 at 8:17 pm

Talking with you in an effort to make you like me would indeed be pretty pathetic. I am not doing that. I am merely pointing out your errors in a public debate.

Sometimes I really suspect that that the major difference between gamers and non-gamers is one of IQ. Game depends on a systematic failure to spot mildly subtle but crucial distinctions.

And your unprovoked rudeness to me DOES make onlookers think you are not as confident in your position as you claim. You should indeed feel embarrassed that you overreacted to an internet debate. It does indeed make you look….well, a tad silly.

But to each his own.

donlak November 3, 2011 at 7:53 pm

wow… you posted a link that supports your concept… shocked. Well all my experience with game working and having self respect is officially changed. I can find a link that proves your an alien too… doesn’t make it right.

and logic is something you clearly don’t understand.

donlak November 3, 2011 at 7:50 pm

No. There isn’t, Harry. You have just made probably the most telling statement about yourself.

You= want to bend the world to your way
game= understand the world and how it operates, use this knowledge to better your life and others around you.

you, cannot bend the world to your way, because the world doesn’t give a fuck about your world. So you will continue in a delusional mindset that the world will bend to your will and you will rationalize everything to fit into this delusion. We used to have a word for this… I think it was… insanity.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 8:03 pm

I am not interested in bending the world to my way. I am interested in describing the world accurately and letting others make a choice.

My main point is not about achieving any result in the outside world.

Let me repeat that – my main point has never been achieving any result in the outside world (bending the world to my will).

There are values beyond achieving a result in the outside world.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 7:34 pm

Just found a brilliant refutation of whether game works on this blog http://www.seductionmyth.com/

Since I talk mostly about whether it is compatible with self-respect, thats a great discussion of whether it actually works or not.

One caveat – you actually need logic to understand the arguments.

donlak November 3, 2011 at 6:37 pm

you’re definition of degrading – not everyone’s.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 7:05 pm

There is only one definition of degradation.

What you mean to say is that you do not mind being degraded. That is quite true.

donlak November 3, 2011 at 6:27 pm

sure buddy… I’ve been living this lifestyle for about 15 years… you’re right, it doesn’t work.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 6:28 pm

Holy Mother of Good!

Were you stoned the whole time?

donlak November 3, 2011 at 6:19 pm

And yes… we proved it’s degrading to you.., your basis is that’s degrading because it conflicts w your values – but it doesn’t for me or any guy wanting to learn game, or sleep with women, or be better with women he has chosen or a lot of other things that probably aren’t your values. That was your basis of this argument – game for you is degrading. Good stuff. We get it.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 6:27 pm

Game is degrading because it fits the objective definition of degradation – it involves lowering yourself to women to get them.

Game is not degrading BECAUSE it conflicts with my values.

Doing GAME conflicts with my values. Because one of my values is not to degrade myself.

Logic – a pesky thorn in ones neck, no?

donlak November 3, 2011 at 6:15 pm

Who was shouting?

And yeah, you got me… you’re right. Good luck with your goal.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 6:20 pm

Cheers, donlak. And good luck with women hunting ;) You will come back to this in a few years after you accumulate enough experience to see that game does not work and laugh at the positions you have taken here.

Best,

donlak November 3, 2011 at 6:00 pm

As to the debate itself, it was over yesterday, Elam lost it with his post, and comments. Frost didn’t even need this post to win, but it was still a good nail in the coffin.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 6:11 pm

Methinks thou dost protest too much. If Frost won, you do not need to shout it too loudly. It should be obvious.

Oh, and you are conflating two issues which it is crucially important to keep separate 1)Does game work 2) Is it degrading.

My main concern has always been with 2. I toss out points about 1 as asides.

JP November 21, 2011 at 4:58 pm

Thank God for Harry!! Apparently all this time that I was practicing Game I was actually degrading myself.

When I decided to stop buying things for women in exchange for their attention company, I was actually degrading myself because it wasn’t a spontaneous personalty change.

When I took home that girl straight home from the bar after 20 minutes of small talk and a public make out session, I was actually degrading myself because I was giving the woman what she secretly wanted.

When I bust a nut over some girls titties, its degrading because it is actually what she wants and not what I want.

When I ignore a girls texts I’m actually degrading myself because she wanted to feel more attracted to me by me ignoring her.

When I changed my personality to be less shy, and to be more outgoing and assertive, I was actually degrading myself because I was only doing it to get pussy and being assertive and outgoing has no other real world value.

donlak November 3, 2011 at 5:52 pm

Harry, for the last time – game teaches men self respect and power over themselves, and of course women. We Get that you don’t agree… you made that point two days ago, I don’t see anything new here. It doesn’t natter how many times you tell me the sky is pink, or how many point by point breakdowns of what we say telling you it’s not pink, or how elaborate your explanation, the sky is blue. Game works for a lot of guys, a lot of guys, you don’t like it, cool beans. I don’t see anyone being swayed by your arguments here tho…

Harry November 3, 2011 at 6:09 pm

Donlak, I am not trying to sway YOU.

There are other guys reading this blog *overhearing the conversation*, as it were. They need to see an alternative point of view. They need to see an articulation of why some men might reject game.

After all, gamers come over to MRA sites to argue their case. Do you object to anti-gamers coming over to game sites to present an alternative viewpoint?

And the fact that you argued against me so tenaciously yesterday rather than dismiss me with a shrug, suggests you are troubled that what I say might have some merit. It shows pride is not dead in you yet. There is a spark.

Harry November 3, 2011 at 5:20 pm

*……As for the rest of us, we need to learn how to meet, seduce, and have fulfilling relationships with women…..*

Sure, but we need to learn how to do this without degrading ourselves by letting women select our personality for us.

What if we CANNOT get laid without degrading ourselves by letting women select our values for us?

Then men have a choice. Some men will choose sex. Some men will choose self-respect and autonomy.

Game has to ADMIT that a choice is involved.

*……Yes, I realize we don’t need sex and companionship, in the same way we need food and oxygen. But we desperately want it. The desire is woven into our genes more tightly than any other. Some young men who choose a life of celibacy will claim to not feel this desire. Most are lying to themselves. The rest need to get their testosterone levels checked….*

Of course men want sex, but should they not want self-respect MORE?

Perhaps it is not Pussy Uber Alles, but should it be Pussy Uber Self-respect?

*…….For the 95% of men who choose a life that involves the pursuit of women, the challenge they face is far greater than Elam, Alek, and their occasional echoers will admit. They want to tell you, their readers, that you don’t need Game. Take a shower. Stand next to women. No further discussion needed.

Perhaps this advice, combined with a simple introduction, is sufficient for a decent-looking man, with some degree of social savvy, to get laid. I grant, there are women for whom Shower Game will suffice…..*

It may not be sufficient to get women. Elam and Alek are WRONG when they claim this is sufficient for every man out there. They go too far in their claim.

The issue is 1) This is ALL that is consistent with self-respect. And 2) Just because merely taking a shower is not ENOUGH, it does not follow that game IS.

The more important issue is that to get sex by conceding to women the premise that who you ARE is a non-value, is to allow yourself to be degraded. To concede to women that who you ARE (when you are following your own values) is *simply not good enough* is to allow women to define your value for you.

The best you can do is be physically presentable. Anything further will come off as pussy begging and lower your chances. For the vast majority of men this will be sufficient to get the best sex that is available to them, personally.

Is it sufficient for all men? No. Is it sufficient to get the very best women? Not necessarily. But it does not follow that supplication through game will increase your chances.

*…….But ‘getting laid’ is not a binary value. In a healthy man’s mind, there is more to life than just ‘getting laid’ and ‘not getting laid.’ Do I want to get my dick wet? Sure. But that’s not all:

– I want to consistently have one-night stands with extraordinarily beautiful, smart and interesting women.

– I want to consistently be in relationships with beautiful, brilliant, kind, sweet, generous women.

– Eventually, I want to find the most incredible woman I’ve ever met in my life, and I want to have children with her……*

The belief that you can do this by sacrificing your masculine autonomy to choose your own behavior is sad to me. The belief that you can do this by conceding the premise that who you ARE is a non-value is sad to me.

That you would value a relationship based on successfully creating an illusion in the mind of another who might despise you if she knew what you really felt and thought, is sad to me. That you wish for love through the sacrifice of your masculinity and selfhood is sad to me.

That you are willing to achieve your goals through pandering to women is sad to me.

The sacrifice of self you advocate is not merely to obtain sex, but to obtain it in its most pleasurable and vain form. Sex with merely attractive women is not sufficient for you. It is not simply about satisfying the supposed biological necessity for sex. It is more about achieving maximum pleasure and vanity.

Even if you COULD do this by sacrificing your masculinity, would it be worth it?

These are all fine goals, but are there not higher goals?

*……Individually, these are all bold and challenging goals. Combined, they strain the boundaries of reality. Less than one-tenth of one-percent of men can honestly claim to have achieved the life that I desire. I have unashamedly set my sights on being the sort of man who can literally take his pick of women……*

There is no shame in pursuing these goals. Shame consists in that you are willing to do to obtain them.

Dreams can be a source of inspiration, but can also lead men into fearful abysses of degradation and desperate pursuit of outcomes for which no amount of self-abasement is too high a price to pay. Many a man has lost his way as a man in pursuit of his dreams.

Dreams can be a source of danger as well as inspiration. And when the dream is merely one of luxury and pleasure, becoming utterly degraded might not be worth it for some men.

So pursue the dream by all means – but find ways to do it that does not involve pandering to women and allowing her to define your value for you.

If you cannot find any other means, perhaps the dream is not worth it.

*…..So you see, the men of my generation have a lot to learn. We have our work cut out for us. This is especially the case if we want to limit your relationships to the cream of the crop – the most attractive, smartest, sweetest, most trust-worthy women in the United States…..*

If we are willing to achieve these goals by pandering to women, then it might not be a goal worth pursuing. If you are willing to achieve these goals by conceding to women the right to choose your values for you, and shape yourself in accordance with her values rather than your own, perhaps it is not worth it.

That you think there is value in being loved for an illusion is sad to me.

*……Paul, have you seen the women in this country? The number that are bangable, let alone dateable, is not great. And I’m competing with every non-dumpster-diving man for those select few……*

So you are conceding that who you are when not trying to be liked is not sufficient these women to choose you? If that is the case, a self-respecting man would not accept being with these women. A self-respecting man does NOT want to be with women who do not see HIM as a value.

*…….Fortunately, I’ve found a few resources that have helped provide a little light on this dark path. Roosh offers simple, natural-feeling examples of how he meets and seduces women…..*

Roosh travels to Third World countries to get laid. I am not judging him, but this seems like strong evidence that he has not mastered getting laid in the United States.
Furthermore, he has reported in his blog a 3% success rate, which is hardly the thundering success men might expect.

Roosh has admitted doing poorly with women in South America, and that the only place he has don extremely well with women is Poland, where women have a fetish for Spanish looking men like him.

The obvious conclusion is that game has not helped roosh, and that he has only done well in countries where his type is fetishized.

*…… Roissy has introduced an entire generation of young men to Red Pill ideas by interspersing them within practical advice on the nuts and bolts of seduction, and occasional musings on the inevitable downfall of western civilization…..*

Roissy has introduced Red Pill ideas as a basis for figuring out better ways to supplicate to women. Roissy merely uses Red Pill ideas as the basis for figuring out better and more sophisticated ways to supplicate to women, by giving them what they *really* want.

So even as he introduces Red Pill ideas he uses them to craft a sophisticated poison that has done more to reduce male self-confidence than almost any other writer out there. He believes men must conform to womens desires of what a man be and has explicitly stated that a mans worth is measured by female response. EXPLICITLY stated this, not implied it. No clearer example of a man who has forfeited his self-respect for women can be found.

In Roissys hands, Red Pill ideas actually does HARM rather than good. It is rat poison in his hands.

*…. I write about game and sexual politics partly because it interests me, but also because learning how to have fulfilling relationships with women is an important priority to the vast majority of healthy young men….*

It is difficult to see how a relationship can be *fulfilling* if it is obtained through pandering to women and forfeiting your self-respect to them.

*…..These men, like me, want to acquire whatever tools they can to improve their fortunes with women. That’s what Game is. That’s how we define it…..*

If the tools involve self-degradation, then perhaps it is a tool not worth using?

*…..If you would rather score points on some fictionalized caricature of the seduction community that turns its members into effeminate hipsters, prostrates itself before women, sells overpriced seminars, and values pussy as the one and only worthy goal in life, go pick a fight with them……..*

Saying that the seduction community advises prostrating yourself before women is not a caricature, it is a self-admitted fact. They merely advise doing so in indirect ways through changing yourself to be liked by women. Just because they advise prostration that is indirect they feel that it is not prostration. That does not follow.

It is indeed an overstatement to say that the seduction community values women over EVERYTHING. It is quite sufficient to say that the seduction community values women over SELF-RESPECT. That is bad enough.

*….As it stands, you called out Roissy, and you’re debating me. So let me tell you a little bit about the community we’re a part of:

1) We write about Game

*…..There is no upper limit to how successful a man can be with women…..*

A dangerous fiction that can lead some men into self-degradation. Most gamers do not make this ludicrous claim.

*……Non-celibate commenters, can you honestly look in the mirror and tell yourself that you don’t want more and better? …..*

Perhaps we want more and better. Are we willing to pander to women to get it? I am not. You seem to be.

*…..We are addicted to becoming better versions of ourselves, and we will hopefully not rest while our hearts still beat…..*

So a *better* version of yourself is merely whatever women like you to be? Fascinating. You have simply conceded that women define your value for you. You have conceded that who you are when female reaction is not considered is a non-value.

Perhaps that is fine with some men. It is not something I am willing to do.

*…..We write about Game as one facet of a general commitment to self-improvement and better living….*

Learning to put the values of others above our own values, learning to pander to women, is NOT compatible with self-improvement.

This mendacious and duplicitous gamer claim needs to stop. It is what is most irking in the gamer community.

If gamers simply admitted that what they do is about learning to supplicate women in ever more sophisticated ways, that would be better. Men can then make an informed choice. But this idea that learning to supplicate is merely a form of *self-improvement* is what makes game look like it trying to design a snare for the unwary.

*…..It’s actually somewhat ironic that I wound up carrying the ‘Gamer’ torch in this debate, since only about one-fifth of my posts are Game-related. The rest is about Paleolithic nutrition, personal finance and career choices, productivity and focus, and finding meaning in a world that doesn’t seem to have a lot of it….*

It is not necessarily ironic. Game is merely the willingness to sacrifice self-respect to get women by adapting to them rather than having a back bone. It is quite possible you give similar advice in all areas of life.

*…..As a man who is ruthlessly dedicated to discipline and conscious living in every other aspect of his life, I see no reason to make an exception for my relationships with women….*

Indeed, there is no reason you should.

*….. I’ll say it again: Having my pick of women to have sex and relationships with is vitally important in my life. Is this because of my ego? A bit. Because society has conditioned me? I can’t disprove that. But the overwhelming impetus behind my desire to bang hot women is that it’s encoded in my DNA….*

And we will respond again; achieving that goal at the expense of your male autonomy and self-respect by learning to adapt yourself to women is a pathetic and contemptible thing.

It is not your ego but your LACK of a sufficiently developed ego that allows you to choose these methods.

It is not societys fault, it is your failure to develop a back bone.

Your DNA has only given you the desire to fuck – YOU have chosen to sacrifice yourself for this desire.

*……Among virtually every man my age, this is an enduring and unchangeable fact of life. Nor would I change it, if I could. As men, we love sex, we love women, and we love that we love sex and women. …..*

Indeed, I agree. I love sex and women too. But there is one thing I love EVEN more; my self-respect.

I realize not every man feels that way. We must each make our choice.

*…..To deny it would be to live a fraction of life…*

No one is suggesting you deny it.

*…. Does that make me pussy-centric? Well Paul, I guess I’m just pussy-centric…*

What makes you pussy-centric is that you are willing to put women above self-respect.

*…..In the interest of moving this conversation forward, I hope you can grant me this premise: Seducing high-quality women is not easy…..*

Agreed.

*…….The vast majority of men in the world would like to do it, but they cannot…..*

The vast majority of men would like to HAVE beautiful women. I disagree that most would like to SEDUCE them. To seduce means trying to make others like you through adapting yourself to what they like, which can mean spinelessly faking yourself.

I DENY most men wish to seduce beautiful women. They merely wish to HAVE them.

Needing to seduce rests on conceding that your natural values are not sufficient. It is a choice some men make.

*……Maybe it’s easy for you and many of your commenters (although as a general rule, I take internet tough-guys’ claims to sexual prowess with a shaker of salt). But it’s not easy for the vast majority of men……*

Not only is seducing not easy, it is not even desirable, since it involves faking who you are to be liked.

*…..Those of you in the live viewing audience, don’t take my word for it – just look around you in the real world. Sleeping with 9s and 10s on a regular basis is difficult….*

True. It does not follow that game helps you. Nor does it follow that it is worth the loss in self-respect.

*……We need a hell of a lot more than “just take a shower.”….*

We might need more to get beautiful women, but there might not exist more.

There might exist more, but it might not be worth sacrificing your self-respect to do it.

THOSE are the issues.

*….If Shower Game is the best that A Voice For Men can do, than the question is closed. Young men need a better source of information about women and dating. The Roissysphere is it…..*

If someone advises young men to sacrifice their self-respect for sex, he is selling them short.

JT November 3, 2011 at 3:27 pm

Great write-up!

However, this debate is unnecessary.

Can’t help someone who isn’t open to help, and if guys want to live a mediocre life and without hot girls…then let them.

Rob November 3, 2011 at 2:15 pm

Elams resort to ad hominem attacks indicate personal weakness and a small mind. His second offering was an embarrassment. Comparing your pieces to his proves that there is no causality between age and maturity.

iks November 3, 2011 at 1:32 pm

On the AVFM comments to this I noticed something that encapsulates one of my biggest problem with game in one short statement:

“[Game is] A guide to being the best defector when faced with a tragedy of the commons.”

Game is all about mine, mine, mine– when the wimminz have gone crazy, how can I best exploit that situation to my own advantage at the expense of others. Hell, Roissy admits this all the time, he says a return to patriarchal norms would hurt him and that game is basically a guide to having the most fun while the ship sinks.

This is what I think gamers’ real problem with MRA is– they know that they aren’t doing a damn thing for the common good (the opposite in fact) but they’re in denial of it. Their real problem is that MRAs are doing something for the common good and thereby reminding them of their own selfishness.

“Man doesn’t live from bread alone,” and neither does he live from pussy alone. We’re happiest when we have a higher purpose in life. Gamers tend to take two different positions in response to this:

1. Man CAN live from pussy alone! (Roissy who claims in his old age he’ll stay happy with hookers and booze; he’s at least better than the hordes of other deluded gamers who believe it’s easy for senior citizens to get hot 20 year old pussy)

2. Game has a higher purpose! Game will solve all of our problems and society’s problems!

This whole ongoing attack on MRAs by gamers isn’t really about MRAs. It seems to be at its root a desperate attempt by gamers to convince themselves that game does have some higher purpose.

Now the other problem I have with game is that it doesn’t actually work. I think the 95% of game advice as BS is a pretty good estimate. You even agreed with me on this before didn’t you Frost? Maybe not the specific 95% figure, but the general idea that game usually only “works” as a placebo effect. OTOH maybe this is good; i.e. that those seeking a guide to be the best defector get a shitty guide. Karma?

Last thing I want to say is that probably the single greatest problem I have with game– that it’s degrading. I’ve been following the comment thread on your site with Harry and was tempted to join in but realize I didn’t have anything to add since he was doing such a good job himself.

Well one more last thing Frost– I think you’re doing a decent job here defending game, considering that game is a pretty indefensible position. I think you’ll eventually see this with time. I don’t mean this as a cheap swipe at you; it’s just that I disagree with you on game but admire a lot of your other writings, and thus see you in this debate like a well trained and genuinely admirable French general in WWII trying to make the best of the obsolete Maginot Line.

davver November 3, 2011 at 3:55 pm

“This is what I think gamers’ real problem with MRA is– they know that they aren’t doing a damn thing for the common good (the opposite in fact) but they’re in denial of it.”

What denial? How does one man change cultural norms? How does one man go back and un-invent most of technology changes that have led to the current state of affairs? No man can, no movement of men can. You have to decide how to act on your own. There is no denial, only a pragmatic look at ones options available. Does Elam really thing his being celebate is going to change divorce laws?

“This whole ongoing attack on MRAs by gamers isn’t really about MRAs. It seems to be at its root a desperate attempt by gamers to convince themselves that game does have some higher purpose.”

To the extent that all men become gamers it would increase the overall market posistion of men, just like if all women witheld vag it would increase the overall market position of women.

“Last thing I want to say is that probably the single greatest problem I have with game– that it’s degrading. ”

Not getting laid is degrading. Its admitting to yourself that you are a biological dead end and that the millions of ancestors that came before you and managed to survive a harsh world and conquer women will die with you. Your body, mind, and soul will punish you every single day for failing to fulfill your prime biological imperative which you were born to fulfill.

“I think the 95% of game advice as BS is a pretty good estimate.”

I don’t know what % of game is BS. I only know it dramatically increased my rate of getting laid while putting out less effort in getting women (work smarter, not harder).

iks November 3, 2011 at 6:47 pm

“What denial? How does one man change cultural norms?”

Very rarely if ever does one man change cultural norms in complete isolation, but men assisted by relatively small groups of men have done so many times. Adorno, Freud, Elvis, MLK, Jan Hus, Martin Luther, Hitler, Ignatius Loyola, Marx, Walesa, Jefferson, Napoleon, John Brown… all examples of individuals from all over the ideological spectrum who with the help of (at the beginning at least) relatively small groups eventually changed the world. One common element is backbone and a consideration of the common good (even those were evil and had a very perverted idea of what the common good was) above their own individual need for material pleasure.

Of course most men will not make changes on that scale; they can’t be the “big names,” like Loyola or Luther (to use men from opposite ends of the spectrum) but a great many can participate and contribute– be a part of the reformation or counter reformation, whichever one is more greatly in tune with their values.

“How does one man go back and un-invent most of technology changes that have led to the current state of affairs? No man can, no movement of men can.”

True. Un-inventing technology is futile. But changing the legal and cultural norms may not be– and even if it is– it is still a noble endeavor. I do believe the MRM has the potential to eventually succeed in this. They may need to change various things about themselves in terms of their tactics, but their end goal is noble, worthwhile and possible– even if exceedingly difficult to achieve.

“Does Elam really thing his being celebate is going to change divorce laws?”

He’s not celibate. But OTOH do you really think gamers not remaining celibate is going to change divorce laws?

“To the extent that all men become gamers it would increase the overall market posistion of men, just like if all women witheld vag it would increase the overall market position of women.”

Just how does this work? Men get better at picking up chicks (and mostly better at getting the skankiest, least trustworthy types of bar and club sluts) and so therefore men suddenly are worth more? What actually would happen is that more gamers=more guys who appeal to the skankiest and bitchiest of women– therefore increasing the skanky/bitchy woman’s value. Game encourages men to lower their integrity and morals to get with women who have low integrity and morals– increasing the ‘value’ of both (not in an absolute moral sense but in a market sense).

This is the meaning of: “[Game is] A guide to being the best defector when faced with a tragedy of the commons.”

“Not getting laid is degrading. Its admitting to yourself that you are a biological dead end and that the millions of ancestors that came before you and managed to survive a harsh world and conquer women will die with you. Your body, mind, and soul will punish you every single day for failing to fulfill your prime biological imperative which you were born to fulfill.”

Did those millions of ancestors that came before you practice game? Game was invented in the past few decades, yet your millions of ancestors managed to have sex without it.

It’s not a choice between game and celibacy.

“I don’t know what % of game is BS. I only know it dramatically increased my rate of getting laid while putting out less effort in getting women (work smarter, not harder).”

I used to believe this when I was involved in game, which was for about 5 years from age 17-22. I eventually came to the conclusion that I just didn’t do approaches and socialize all that much before game and the seeming “improvement” was just because I did something instead of nothing. “Improvement” caused by game is mostly the placebo effect.

Eventually I found that I can still get women without any of the silly and degrading game tactics.

tenthring November 3, 2011 at 9:07 pm

iks,

One man or group of men have never changed gender norms. Men who complain about their gender getting the short stick are considered weak. No one has ever succeeded.

Women exchange sex for resources (time, money, putting up with shit). Men NEED sex. If they can get sex without giving up a lot of resources (time, money, putting up with shit) eventually women will have to market a product other then sex to get what they want (like actually being decent human beings).

I have no clue what will change divorce laws. I do know that if men can get sex without getting married, they will be less willing to marry. And women, who want to get married, will have to make the deal sweeter for men to join.

Yes, my ancestors did. Game is a natural state for men. Game is unlearned in modern society. By learning game you are simply learning to be like your ancestors.

Yes, it is a choice between game an celibacy. Or something close enough to celibacy. Or the degrading process of forking over massive resources for a few low quality bangs.

I’ve seen genuine improvement with game independent of approach increase. I get a higher response rate, and responses from higher quality girls. People arguing its a placebo effect overstate their case.

ladderff November 4, 2011 at 11:16 am

Frost more or less addressed your point here. Pointing out a potential tragedy of the commons problem doesn’t change the actions of the agents involved from rational to irrational—that’s why it’s tragic. You seem to be suggesting that we brothers unite! and… I’m not sure what, boycott pussy or something. The link explains why that’s wrongheaded. Also this business that anybody is saying you can or should live for pussy alone—who is actually saying this?

Naughty Nomad November 3, 2011 at 9:06 am

You tell em’ skeether!

Johnny Milfquest November 3, 2011 at 8:52 am

Here’s a youngster running Shower Game on women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=83nBfYgSr94

He’s getting good results with the shower gel, but he needs to work on the ignoring a bit more. If he does that, he’ll be drowning in pussy like Uncle Paul.

http://www.quickmeme.com/Cranky-Mens-Rights-Activist/

Peter Phoenix November 3, 2011 at 7:15 am

Fantastic piece!

ladderff November 3, 2011 at 6:59 am

Well done. That you remain even-tempered in the face of your opponent’s vicious, off-topic ramblings is perhaps more consideration than he seems to deserve, but it seems to have inspired many commenters, who are meeting ad hominem and invective with logic and cited evidence.

It seems to me that you could have started with a stronger definition of game. Defining game as “whatever works” means defining it too weakly, and some of the commenters over there have been scoring valid points against you for it. A stricter, fairer, and more important definition would have acknowledged that, for all of its variety in practice, game does not merely “study [] how women respond to men’s behaviour.” It posits certain specific things about female cognition, viz, hypergamy, and it does have as its practical goal the “manipulation” (not automatically a “bad” word) of female behavior—sexual behavior, primarily (though not necessarily just for one-night stands or maximizing one’s bang count—another pointless caricature). You were right to cite the diversity of opinion among various game bloggers you mentioned, but none of them would say they don’t believe in hypergamy, or that game is primarily useful for avoiding sex and getting your house painted. Yes, one could pretend to be crippled and, if it got him laid, call it “sympathy game.” For that matter one could say that paying a prostitute “works” and is therefore game. However I think we can agree that these things are outside the core of the meaning of “game.” The definition you basically gave at the end of your Part 1 (which went completely unaddressed), was better.

Anyway, I ask that you keep the links here up-to-date, as some people are trying to bring others (who wrongly think they don’t need to hear what’s being said here) into the mix.

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