Paul Elam Does Not Have The Answers You’re Looking For

by Frost on October 24, 2011

It’s a weird time we’re living in.

If you’re reading this, odds are you’ve come to the conclusion that our society’s mainstream sources of information are broken. So like me, you’ve set out into the intellectual wild west known as the blogosphere. Out here, there are no laws, no certainties, and you have to make your own choices regarding who to trust, and who to ignore.

A man named Paul Elam recently suggested that you ignore me.

Specifically, he suggested that you ignore the entire Game blogosphere:

“But the ones that remain, and make it a lifestyle, are just too enslaved to imagine red pill freedom, and likely not bright enough to learn what it means. They are literally institutionalized by their own desires and cannot imagine setting foot outside the city limits of Snatchville. The unquestionable black hole that exists in all these men is the place that should have held their core values and self respect.

Anyone who attempts to make an art form of passing a shit test has only succeeded in eating said shit and advertising themselves to the world as a shit eater (Yes, I know, but you get PUSSY!). Too bad such unfortunates seem oblivious to the fact that refusing to even participate in a shit test will have the same effect as passing one, except that it might help to eventually hook you up with a woman slightly less likely to yell rape the first time she gets pissed at you, or cut off your dick when you’re asleep.

And anyone who believes in tossing negs, concocted for the purpose of aiding in the score, only does so because they don’t realize that living by values that you don’t retreat from, one of them being that your self-respect is worth more than time in a common vagina, is the best neg you could ever hope to toss. But hey, if you like begging, eating shit and life with no values, The Chateau has room for you.”

The reference to the Chateau referring, of course, to Roissy.

I am sympathetic to the values and goals of the Men’s Rights Movement, to which Paul is a valuable contributor. But the movement is heading for a split.

On one side will be the reasonable and principled Men’s Rights Activists, who will recognize and respect the desire of men to improve their lives, including their relationships with women. Those who are older and set in their ways may not be interested in writers (such as myself) whose goal is to help men lead better lives, but at the very least they will ignore us, while continuing to focus their attention on other men’s issues.

On the other will be the men who are angered by the growing phenomenon of men, recognizing that their understanding of women, sex and dating is imperfect, coming together to share knowledge and compare notes. These men will continue to  lash out at practitioners of Game, pick-up artists, and whatever other label you want to affix on men trying to improve their fortunes with women. The latter side will gradually fade from importance in the marketplace of ideas, as their readers begin to understand their true goals – not to help others, or inform them, or share truths with the world. Rather, to soothe some inner torment, to fuel some deep-seated anger against anyone who dares to be happier and more successful than they.

Here is Paul’s advice for the contemporary young man,trying to navigate the 21st-century sexual marketplace:

“O.K., so you want to get laid? Here’s how you do it. Smell clean, get in the proximity of women, and then ignore them. When they come to fuck you, and they will, shut up and let it happen.

Sorry, but there is little else to it. Women are wired to respond to men who walk with enough self-confidence and involvement in their own lives that they don’t need to invest any energy into bagging girls. They attract women naturally.”

But, as anyone who has ever stepped outside of their basement knows (including Paul, deep down) this advice is insufficient. A man who follows it will remain a lifelong celibate. Also perhaps, a lifelong Voice For Men reader, as his celibacy breeds more bitterness, and thus more susceptibility to Paul’s particular brand of self-help advice for the modern man.

I have too much respect for Paul’s work to immediately relegate him to the second class of MRAs. We’ve all written things we later come to see as foolish. So rather than pile on, I’m going to offer him an opportunity for a productive exchange:

Paul Elam, I am challenging you to a public debate on the subject of Game and Men’s Rights. You may choose the format, although I will suggest three posts each of unlimited length. You may also choose the proposition, or begin by simply laying out your thoughts on why men shouldn’t learn game. Or, you can respond to my points in this post. Or, you can respond to any points I’ve made in any post, ever.

If Paul chooses to take me up on this offer, great. I doubt we’ll come to a complete agreement overnight, but I will always respect someone who disagrees with me, as long as they’re willing to discuss our difference of opinion honestly. In any case, I’ll probably learn something. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

If he declines? Well, I wish he and his readers all the best as they continue their pointless sideline sniping, while the real players conquer the world.

{ 23 comments… read them below or add one }

lol October 29, 2011 at 12:14 pm

PUAs are delusional, pathetic beggars with no self-respect who grovel in front of women, ready to jump through any hoop like circus animals, even if it means enabling feminism.

MRAs are at best feminists with the genders reversed and at worst wannabe rapists.

Both sides are a waste of perfectly good oxygen.

Naughty Nomad October 27, 2011 at 1:53 pm

Master stroke Frost,
I see the debate is on the front page of A voice for men. Good luck, I look forward to it!

Arch October 26, 2011 at 10:54 am

One thing I’ve noticed since following A Voice For Men for a while and listening to a few of the radio shows is that there is a lot of anger. It’s completely understandable and I will say even righteous. The culture we’re in and the laws we have to deal with are absolute crap.

However, anger eats at you, righteous or not. It’s very powerful in the short term but self-destructive in the long term. You get so used to lashing out that you forget when its appropriate.

I see Paul Elam’s lashing out at Game or Pick Up Artistry as a frustration. Instead of actively fighting for change for everyone, PUAs are individually adapting to the reality of the situation. That’s got to be really frustrating to watch and some people would consider that selfish. I’m not one of those people, however.

To survive I really believe strongly that the MRA movement is going to need to adopt the happy warrior ethos. Rather than spit and froth at the injustice, we need to ridicule it. It’s not even particularly difficult since feminism and liberalism are so ripe with contradictions and fallacies and other low-hanging fruit. The jokes practically write themselves and Roissy/Heartiste has a particular talent at colorfully describing concepts in a humorous manner.

To continue on the angry path means volatility in the movement as followers and leaders alike spar with each other and then emotionally burn out and fade away.

I agree that a split is probably likely but I don’t see opposing camps setting up for battle. I see a lot of men throwing up their hands and going their own way.

Peter Phoenix October 25, 2011 at 5:14 pm

Wait….

You expect this guy: http://en.gravatar.com/paulelam

To be rolling in pussy?

Bahahaha. Case Closed.

Ice October 25, 2011 at 12:45 pm

If you want to understand Paul Elam and his goals better, the take a look at this:

http://manhood101.com/ebook.html

And then read this:

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/05/02/manhood-academy-special-ed-at-best/

by Elam

And his comments in this:

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/05/06/manhood-academy-magnet-for-rape-supporters/

by Price

Understand the essential message of the Manhood Academy, and then see if Elam (and Price) was truthful.

And then ask yourself why.

tenthring October 25, 2011 at 12:13 am

“Picking one woman and “going after her” is for men who can’t get a room full of women to come after them. And the truth is that almost any man can own that room, top to bottom, if he wants to.”

He starts with an entire thing about how pussy is power, but then goes to this. However, how can pussy be power if any man can get it with no effort? His conclusions don’t make sense with one another.

Here’s a simpler explanation. If you born in the top 10% of the male genome (tall, large frame that builds muscle easily, natural extrovert) its easy to get women. If you are anyone else you have to use game.

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm

I’d even go one step further. I consider myself to be in the top 10% of “naturals” and I still have to put in work. I can get away with weaker game than a guy who doesn’t have some of my natural advantages, but I can’t get away with no game. Also there’s the doing what you can with your potential factor. If I were a 5, I’d feel great about dating 8s. As a male 8 (potential-wise), I want to hold myself to a higher standard.

And of course no matter how attractive you are, so much of game comes down to one basic skill: Approaching. If I didn’t approach, I would almost never meet new women. One of my friends is ridiculously good looking, and a cool/extroverted guy if you know him. But he NEVER approaches, and as a result has spent his adult life hopping from one mediocre girl to the next. He is a 9, literally dating a six. Sad.

Retrenched October 24, 2011 at 7:33 pm

RE: “O.K., so you want to get laid? Here’s how you do it. Smell clean, get in the proximity of women, and then ignore them. When they come to fuck you, and they will, shut up and let it happen. ”

FWIW, here’s an article he wrote last year which describes his “game” strategy in greater detail.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/women/end-game-the-beginning/

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:17 pm

Interesting. Definitely a more accurate perspective than what we see from him now. The fundamental problem is this:

“3. Never make a pass at a woman. Never. Stay Zeta and they will make a pass at you.”

Not to be a dick, but I am a pretty good looking guy. I have friends who are extremely good-looking. We almost never get cold approached. I frequently get sort-of approached, i.e. a woman will eye-flirt, come stand near me etc. But it is almost always contingent on me to actually make a pass. When I’m straight-up approached by a woman, it’s almost always by a drunk, mediocre girl. Paul, tireless advocate of male empowerment, is suggesting men completely give up their ability to choose the women they interact with (real power) for the nebulous psychological benefits “being a man who never approaches” (imagined power.)

All in all, I just don’t think paul has a lot of experience with women, and his advocacy of “let the women come to me” game is a not-so-subtle status play on his readers, as he’s making the implicit claim that he constantly has high-quality women throwing themselves at him.

davver October 24, 2011 at 4:27 pm

“O.K., so you want to get laid? Here’s how you do it. Smell clean, get in the proximity of women, and then ignore them. When they come to fuck you, and they will, shut up and let it happen. ”

Maybe this guy is a Calvin Klein model and this works for him, but that’s not my experience. If you don’t engage, you don’t get the pussy. I’m in a house full of guys who won’t approach, and they don’t get laid. I do approach and I do get laid.

Johnny Milfquest October 25, 2011 at 4:15 am

+1.

Elam is celibate. Anyone who follows his advice will be celibate too.

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:01 pm

Is he?

I thought he seemed to be writing from the perspective of “getting laid is easy, I do it all the time sans game.”

If so, he should include that caveat to his advice.

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:17 pm

Exactly. See my reply to Retrenched above.

Rmax October 24, 2011 at 4:21 pm

Btw im not advocating what he said about Roissy, that was clearly wrong, but the rest on building confidence & building yourself financially is in keeping with Game

He probably doesnt realise it …

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:20 pm

Yeah, and I’m completely open to people who advocate for extremely natural game, although the reality is if you spend enough time hitting on women you’ll realize that certain conversations tend to come up a lot, and you’ll naturally develop stock responses/stories. The crux of my disagreement with Paul is in his don’t approach philosophy.

Rmax October 24, 2011 at 4:16 pm

He basically advocates for inner game, ie confidence & building self value to attract women, over the use of PUA techniques

Plenty of PUA gurus have said basically the same thing, once youve mastered negs, basically gaming girls, you dont need to neg women etc., your inner game eventually naturally attracts women

Paul Elam has a point, you do compromise your values, practising game you are no longer a real beta

What he doesnt understand Roissy, PUA techniques are training for men as freedom from the provider pedestal paradigm beta men are socially pressured by women

radder than frost October 24, 2011 at 4:12 pm

dude, you are just to raaaad for him bro! you’re so rad. really, being rad and not givin’ a f$@k is the way forawrd maaaaaan. just keep being cooooool and s&#t will just pan out bro!

a October 25, 2011 at 7:46 am

boring troll is boring

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:22 pm

Usually I delete boring and trollish comments like this, but since this one has already been replied to I’ll just leave it up like a head on a pike in front of my castle.

Thoughtful and/or funny trolls are encouraged however.

Rmax October 24, 2011 at 4:03 pm

Im not sure where you think paul elams views are anti-game

His post is exactly what Game is all about, build enough confidence & value in your life, its called inner game, all PUA artists teach, what are basic PUA techniques

Read Juggler or Zan, David Deangelo, they all say the same thing

In fact this is a core principle of game, Im not sure where you see Paul Elam advocating for celibacy or antigame in the quote you posted …

There is a core of anti-game MRA, but these as you say wont last, Paul Elam isnt one of them, he definitely understands the core game & judging from your quote … practices it …

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:24 pm

Except that he advocates against approaching, or consciously thinking about your game. And calls out Roissy et al for basically doing that.

I’m all for inner game, but Paul isn’t just saying that it’s important. He’s saying that everything else is worthless.

Peter Phoenix October 24, 2011 at 3:59 pm

A man is entitled to his own opinions. But it is when he tries to force those opinions onto others, his words will he held under scrutiny.

I support all men that engage in Men’s Activism and trying to better themselves, but believe that if Paul is waiting for women to come to him, he will not be getting the women he truly desires. Time does not wait for passive men.

Frost October 25, 2011 at 1:25 pm

Yes, well put.

Interesting new blog btw. I like the short post format, it’s definitely something new. Send me an email once you’ve got another month or two’s worth of archives.

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